Curse

Shadowhaze · Mar 15, 2010, 02:13 AM // 02:13

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

The game is 5 years old. GW2 is around 1 year away from release. There is absolutely no benefit for an experienced player to help a newer one at this point in time. I'm sorry but if you are a newer player now, you're about 2 years too late.

That's the kind of attitude that has killed/is killing the game.

End · Mar 15, 2010, 02:46 AM // 02:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by UnChosen

Talk about missing the point. My guild is that 1 in a hundred guild that is decent....which I can't say for the majority out there. Guild hopping and praying you get in one that actually do a variety of stuff is nearly as bad as spamming LFG and hoping to get into a good pug.

Then pick smarter

I seem to not have an issue finding guilds with talented people...I usually leave over some stupid argument...or because a shift in my desires out of the game...check out the guilds before you join...this site is a wonderful resource to find them...most guilds post their sites...go check out their sites...when one looks right join it...

Still Number One · Mar 15, 2010, 02:55 AM // 02:55

Quote:

Originally Posted by sthpaw

all im saying it that it pays to help people out.

It does not pay for PuGs to help people out. They get no benefit for gimping themselves. It can pay for a guild to help newer members out, but not for PuGs. I even said the only feasible way for newer players to get help is to join guilds. I've been saying that for over a year now especially when talking about PvP.

It isn't a random PuGs job to hold your hand. They have their own goals and agenda and a newer player does not help achieve that goal. If a newer player wants to play an elite area, then find a guild that will be patient with you. Don't expect PuGs to drop everything and be the "nice guy."

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowhaze

That's the kind of attitude that has killed/is killing the game.

No, Guild Wars being old and stale is what killed the game. The impatience of the newer players wanting to be handed everything is what killed the game. People caring about the ends and ignoring the means is what killed the game.

The guy who has lead 1000 successful UW PuGs and refuses to let newer players join in isn't killing the game. The top 100 guilds refusing to recruit someone with no GvG experience isn't killing the game. The r9 PuGs not letting the r0's in their group isn't killing the game. Its the attitude of the player not wanting to work to get better and instead get by on someone else's accomplishments that is killing the game.

Shadowhaze · Mar 15, 2010, 03:59 AM // 03:59

lol. Like speed clears and the ends huh?

Not every new player wants things handed to them. Doesn't hurt to show people the ropes.

Still Number One · Mar 15, 2010, 04:33 AM // 04:33

Quote:

Originally Posted by Shadowhaze

Doesn't hurt to show people the ropes.

I can play with people who know what they are doing and complete the UW in a good amount of time, or I can take an inexperienced player, spend time trying to explain everything to him, and chances are he/she won't be able to hold their weight and may in fact cause my group to fail and waste a lot of time.

A person can play HA with other people at his/her level, and have a good chance of getting to halls and even holding it amassing a lot of fame in the hour or so they want to play it. Or they can take someone with little to no experience at all and try to tell him/her how they should be playing their role, and there will be a high chance the person will be completely terrible and they won't be able to win more than a few games gaining maybe 5-10 fame depending on how long they stick with it in comparison to the 50-60 they probably would have gotten with a team of experienced players.

I could keep going but the example is the same for every area. It does hurt your group if you have to stop and show someone the ropes. Like I've already said, it isn't the PuGs job to do that at this point in the game. Find a guild and have them teach you. That is what they are for.

Del · Mar 15, 2010, 05:11 AM // 05:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

That reminds me of a time in a former guild when we needed a perma so i asked my friend, he said he's perma, then he ended up running a moebius build he switched at the last moment. But he has a tendency to do things like that for lulz.

that's part of the cancer killing this game. people can't handle screw ups so they try to get experienced groups, exclude newer people, then complain about pugging/this game being dead. and the guilds that are well capable of helping capable players learn elite areas/high end pvp refuse to, because they care about winning more than just playing for fun.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

I can play with people who know what they are doing and complete the UW in a good amount of time, or I can take an inexperienced player, spend time trying to explain everything to him, and chances are he/she won't be able to hold their weight and may in fact cause my group to fail and waste a lot of time.

A person can play HA with other people at his/her level, and have a good chance of getting to halls and even holding it amassing a lot of fame in the hour or so they want to play it. Or they can take someone with little to no experience at all and try to tell him/her how they should be playing their role, and there will be a high chance the person will be completely terrible and they won't be able to win more than a few games gaining maybe 5-10 fame depending on how long they stick with it in comparison to the 50-60 they probably would have gotten with a team of experienced players.

I could keep going but the example is the same for every area. It does hurt your group if you have to stop and show someone the ropes. Like I've already said, it isn't the PuGs job to do that at this point in the game. Find a guild and have them teach you. That is what they are for.

you sir, are a prime example of the cancer killing this game.

Still Number One · Mar 15, 2010, 06:11 AM // 06:11

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

you sir, are a prime example of the cancer killing this game.

With all due respect sir, no I am not.

Lets just use PvP as an example because it is what I am most familiar with.

A PvEr decides he is bored of title grinding and wants to GvG. He has Obs'd some matches and thinks it looks like fun. His favorite guild is [rawr]. He goes to rawrs forums and sees that they have a recruitment thread. He asks for [rawr] to recruit him because he wants to play and learn from the best. [rawr] tells him they are not recruiting at this time and he isn't what the team is looking for, but thanks him for his interest.

The guy is upset because they won't let him play with them, but decides to try another guild. He pm's a top 200 guild who had a recruitment thread here on guru. They tell him he doesn't have the experience required to play at their level. The guy gets even more frustrated because he's been rejected twice.

The guy then makes a QQ thread here on guru complaining no one will let him play because he doesn't have the experience, but he can't get the experience because (here we come full circle) they won't let him play. He then goes about calling everyone an elitist jerk and says they are ruining Guild Wars.

People then tell him to find a guild of people with similar play experience. He then says there are none. He lies, because there are guilds out there for people just starting off, he just never took the time to look. He finally decides to search and finds a guild that lets him play.

While playing, the guild losses, and they lose a lot. The guy gets upset and quits playing because everyone else on the team is obviously terrible and holding him back. He then holds a grudge against all PvPrs and goes around calling everyone an elitist jackass.

You see, the problem here isn't rawr for not taking him when he wanted to play for them, the problem was him trying to start off way above his level. The problem was him not willing to play with other people just as bad and new as him and take the necessary losses in order to improve himself as a player. The problem is his attitude about expecting other people to sacrifice their goals, in order to help him meet his.

If a player wants to get better, it is that players responsibility to get better. It isn't my responsibility to make him better, it isn't your responsibility to make him better, it's his. Wanna start GvGing? Then find a GvG guild for players just starting off. Wanna start HAing? then find a guild for players just starting off. Wanna learn how to do the UW? Then find a guild that will help you learn.

My attitude isn't killing Guild Wars. People not wanting to work to meet their goals is what is killing Guild Wars. People refusing to take the necessary steps to improve oneself is what is killing Guild Wars. People wanting to cut corners is what is killing Guild Wars.

**cosyfiep** · Mar 15, 2010, 06:28 AM // 06:28

so, let me get this straight....I have never completed the UW ...so I would consider my self inexperienced (dont know which term ya'll would use noob/newb) I have done good portions of it, however, never the whole thing at one go (and never a speed clear!)

I am very willing to learn, however; it has been suggested that I would need to leave the guild I have been part of for 4+ years (its my husbands guild not much of a choice to stay or go) in order to find a guild that is willing to teach me the areas that I have never been to? I am highly capable of listening to directions (and yes I know not to take the quests until explicitly told to do so and which ones)....yet since I have no experience doing a SC or even completing it, I stand a better chance at getting hit by lightning than getting into a pug to complete the underworld (no need to do so for the fow---its easy to complete with heroes and my husband).

Yeah, makes me want to tell people I'm a noob/newb.
(and yes I have no delusions of grandeur that I will ever get to complete it either....no wont be happening with the elitism I am seeing)

Del · Mar 15, 2010, 06:38 AM // 06:38

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

With all due respect sir, no I am not.

Lets just use PvP as an example because it is what I am most familiar with.

A PvEr decides he is bored of title grinding and wants to GvG. He has Obs'd some matches and thinks it looks like fun. His favorite guild is [rawr]. He goes to rawrs forums and sees that they have a recruitment thread. He asks for [rawr] to recruit him because he wants to play and learn from the best. [rawr] tells him they are not recruiting at this time and he isn't what the team is looking for, but thanks him for his interest.

The guy is upset because they won't let him play with them, but decides to try another guild. He pm's a top 200 guild who had a recruitment thread here on guru. They tell him he doesn't have the experience required to play at their level. The guy gets even more frustrated because he's been rejected twice.

The guy then makes a QQ thread here on guru complaining no one will let him play because he doesn't have the experience, but he can't get the experience because (here we come full circle) they won't let him play. He then goes about calling everyone an elitist jerk and says they are ruining Guild Wars.

People then tell him to find a guild of people with similar play experience. He then says there are none. He lies, because there are guilds out there for people just starting off, he just never took the time to look. He finally decides to search and finds a guild that lets him play.

While playing, the guild losses, and they lose a lot. The guy gets upset and quits playing because everyone else on the team is obviously terrible and holding him back. He then holds a grudge against all PvPrs and goes around calling everyone an elitist jackass.

You see, the problem here isn't rawr for not taking him when he wanted to play for them, the problem was him trying to start off way above his level. The problem was him not willing to play with other people just as bad and new as him and take the necessary losses in order to improve himself as a player. The problem is his attitude about expecting other people to sacrifice their goals, in order to help him meet his.

If a player wants to get better, it is that players responsibility to get better. It isn't my responsibility to make him better, it isn't your responsibility to make him better, it's his. Wanna start GvGing? Then find a GvG guild for players just starting off. Wanna start HAing? then find a guild for players just starting off. Wanna learn how to do the UW? Then find a guild that will help you learn.

My attitude isn't killing Guild Wars. People not wanting to work to meet their goals is what is killing Guild Wars. People refusing to take the necessary steps to improve oneself is what is killing Guild Wars. People wanting to cut corners is what is killing Guild Wars.

congratulations on blowing it completely out of proportion, and indeed you did. i'm not saying a guild like i dunno, GS should take people who have no idea what they're doing, i'm saying people who have some idea what's going on should be willing to help others get up to speed, not completely shun them and leave them to figure things out on their own.

like the time i spent trying to teach an ally how to play hammer warrior last night, i could have been getting glad points, or pugging ha, but i pissed away time in scrims trying to teach someone some good technique, did i have to? of course not, but but he was interested and willing to learn, so it was worth the time. however, many players who want to get into new things just don't find people willing to help at all, which is pretty much killing pvp, and generally the game as a whole.

Also, TL;DR

Chthon · Mar 15, 2010, 07:28 AM // 07:28

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

Your conclusion does not follow from the tale you told. You recite the problems, then you assert your theory about why they occurred, but you present no evidence or reasoning linking the two together. Moreover, when the noob finally does as your theory says he should in order to improve, he fails, and fails to ever improve. To me, that would imply that your theory is wrong. At the very least, it's useless, because it does not offer any insight into solving the problem.

pumpkin pie · Mar 15, 2010, 07:47 AM // 07:47

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosyfiep

seriously, there are lots of people who would like to to the uw/fow and dont have a big glorious guild to learn with---and since they are 'noobs' will never get any experience since all groups ONLY look for experienced players. So in order to get a group they will say 'yes, I have done it tons of times' otherwise they wont get a group.
Forgive those of us that have not had the opportunity to do the uw/fow thousands of times, geez.

/Hear hear

so true!

Ellis 404 · Mar 15, 2010, 08:07 AM // 08:07

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

Wanna learn how to do the UW? Then find a guild that will help you learn.

It's craziness, I know, but I learned how to do most of the elite areas with PUGs, managed not to bring painful death to my groups, and never once asked for a thesis on the zone's topology.

Joining a guild is a nice suggestion but it's not a binary choice between joining a guild or "gimping" your fellow players.

Raven Wing · Mar 15, 2010, 08:37 AM // 08:37

I happen to have a guild and alliance with both oldtimers and new people. We got high pve ambitions and ppl willing to show the ropes. 2 days ago we decided to try uw. Team with only 2 uw oldbies, 5 half or full newbs and a hero, nm. We got halfway through but failed after reaper of the ice wastes got killed due to a unfortunate d/c at worst possible time.
Yesterday it was fow time, 2 oldbies, 4 newbies,2 heroes. We finished neat and elegant.
We want to play for fun with friends, and we got the patience. One of the days to come we will also complete uw with a handful of newbs on the team. Ofc we have newbs, not n00bs, i.e. our newbs are listening to what's being told and enjoy being on a team just like we all do.
Later when we have created a few more experienced ppl we will ofc swap to HM, and urgoz/deep/doa are on the list too aswell as slavers etc.

I have a theory about why so many seem to be complete idiots and dont listen to instructions. Language. The european districts are often deserted, not only spanish, polish etc but also english. People migrate to american district to find others to play with. So you will find your share of people who simply are unable to understand english, aswell as your share of immature kids.
My advice is, if you are leading a team, take the time to chat to people and kick if they doesnt reply. No one can expect any good chance of success if you just slap together a random band. Its worth it spending 10-20 more minutes creating team if you can avoid a failure.
Please note that my style is the regular chatty relaxed team, not the speedclear style.
It is obvious that speedclears need stricter discipline since its easier to fail, there is no room for fooling around.

My final advice to uw/fow newbies would be to open pvxwiki, load some build and 3 heroes. Go NM and focus on exploring, (also open the regular wiki and view the maps and descriptions of the places ofc) you can get far with that. In uw do the opening quest clear the chamber and go explore other areas. In FOW you just need to ensure Rastigan doesnt die and you have access to almost the entire place. Once you know the normal monsters in each region its much easier to try out some quests and participate on a team and advance. You will also learn why its a bad idea to attack the wailing lord in fow or taking unwanted guest quest in uw without proper preparation etc. It will require time and money for several entrance fees, but you might even get a shard or ecto while learning

Neky · Mar 15, 2010, 09:00 AM // 09:00

SS LFG UWSC terraway, will provide cons/entry fee.

I have never been in a UWSC group, but have played some solo UW runs, with a 50+ FOWSC runs as a MOP.

Unexperienced, yes. Willing to learn, yes. Feel free to PM

dr love · Mar 15, 2010, 09:15 AM // 09:15

show stones!!!!!
lol

Amy Awien · Mar 15, 2010, 11:27 AM // 11:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Still Number One

The game is 5 years old. GW2 is around 1 year away from release. There is absolutely no benefit for an experienced player to help a newer one at this point in time.

That's poor thinking. A dwindling playerbase is all the more reason to help and educate newer players, if just because these newer players might be your experienced teammates three months from now when some of those experienced players you now prefer will have left the game.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarlius master mage

... a guy says im a tank i have done hundreds of UW clears ...

Bragging is a sure sign that the opposite of what is claimed is actually true.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cosyfiep

... and since they are 'noobs' will never get any experience ...

I hate that word, 'noob', when people start yelling that in team/all chat you know the group is going to break up.

Not having experience in a certain area is not, should not, be a problem when there are some players who do know their way around - and you know your way around in PvE. What is a problem is claiming you have lots and lots of experience in that area, when in fact you have none.

If joining a PuG on the spot fails you might try forming one through Guru's forum PUGs and Grouping. Make a smaller group if you can't find 8 players and add heroes to fill the gaps, read the wiki articles on the area's, their inhabitants and the quests.

Yelling @ Cats · Mar 15, 2010, 03:36 PM // 15:36

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarlius master mage

does anyone other than me have a serious pet peeve of this??

EXAMPLE 1 : 5 mins ago we are in a time, a guy says im a tank i have done hundreds of UW clears, so we thought, sweet lets get him in!
we then enter and he isnt a tank!
he then says.. does anyone know where the reaper of the labrynth is... -.-

it seems to happen everytime, you get one or two massive noobs joining a group caiming to be really good and experienced, and it turns out they have no clue what they are doing.

i wish there was some way of telling who was and wasnt experienced in the elite challenges, but then i suppose it would end up like HA where people only want r5+ and massive title discrimination become apparent. it's a shame but i just really wanted to rant about it because it stresses me out when your up for a full clear and it ends up failing because of one or two lying noobs!

You're calling other people noobs, but taking a "tank" to UW, and complaining that he isn't a "tank"?

Still Number One · Mar 15, 2010, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Del

congratulations on blowing it completely out of proportion, and indeed you did. i'm not saying a guild like i dunno, GS should take people who have no idea what they're doing, i'm saying people who have some idea what's going on should be willing to help others get up to speed, not completely shun them and leave them to figure things out on their own.

like the time i spent trying to teach an ally how to play hammer warrior last night, i could have been getting glad points, or pugging ha, but i pissed away time in scrims trying to teach someone some good technique, did i have to? of course not, but but he was interested and willing to learn, so it was worth the time. however, many players who want to get into new things just don't find people willing to help at all, which is pretty much killing pvp, and generally the game as a whole.

Also, TL;DR

I blew nothing out of proportion because that is exactly what the thread is about. People with no experience, lying to get into groups and then completely ruining the PuGs chance of success.

Helping an ally learn to play hammer warrior is completely different then taking some random guy you'll likely never meet again, and trying to teach him what to do. I'm not against helping people. Hell, that's all I did when I played was help people break into GvG. But that is because I was the leader of a GvG team in a primarily PvE guild for over a year. I'd take with me whoever wanted to play and help them out. But when I left that guild to improve my own ability, it was no longer feasible to take newcomers along because they simply will hold everyone else back.

That is what the whole argument is about. People trying to play above their level, and in the case of UW, people lying about their experience to get into groups that normally would require more than what the person can offer.

And to the person that said my story's ending contradicted itself, reread it. The point I was making is that the attitude of not wanting to put in the necessary work to achieve your goal is what ruined the game and has caused no new bloods to join. The kid wanted to be a high ranked player in GvG. In order to do that, you start at the bottom, take a ton of losses, and learn to play the game. The kid tried to start off at the top and was rejected. When he finally stopped complaining about it, and found a guild at his level, he wasn't willing to put in the work to get the reward. His guild lost a lot (which you are supposed to) and he couldn't take it. He immediately started blaming everyone else, and now hates everything PvP related. The point is, it isn't anyone's fault but his own. He didn't really have the ambition to play PvP in the first place. He wanted all the glory, but none of the responsibility that goes along with it. That isn't just a problem in Guild Wars, its a problem in real life, and in American society in general. Too many people want the reward without having to do the work.

Neo Atomisk · Mar 15, 2010, 04:08 PM // 16:08

the secret to getting groups as a noob is just chilling back and following what everyone else does. you don't need make a splash your first few times in... just be passive.
I'm currently in the process of learning to run bonder in DoA (w/ Guild) so I'm kinda in the same situation, just play with your head and listen to what the leader has to say.

Splatter Mcnasty · Mar 15, 2010, 04:17 PM // 16:17

It would be much easier for people to learn the layout and experience the quests if Anet would simply allow Henchmen into the elite areas (fow, uw, deep, urgoz, doa). No only that, but it would allow those of us who already have the experience to do these areas how we want, rather than in speed clear groups all the time...